Rent or Everything Else: The cost of keeping your home | This Robin Hood Moment

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What happens when keeping your home means so much more than paying your rent?

Keeping your home in New York City takes more than just paying the rent—it takes navigating an invisible maze of systems. Affordable child care, steady employment, timely public benefits, and support in moments of crisis all determine whether a family can hold on to housing long term.

In this episode, we speak with Molly Wasow Park, Commissioner of the NYC Department of Social Services, about how she is reimagining the safety net to make it easier for New Yorkers to not only find housing but to keep it. From breaking down bureaucratic barriers to connecting families with the services they don’t even know exist, we explore what it really takes to stay home in the city.

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at info@robinhood.org.

“This Robin Hood Moment” is hosted by Kevin Thompson and Crystal Cooper. The show is produced and edited by Cory Winter, with graphic design by Mary Power. Additional motion graphics and footage are provided by Motion Array. Our theme music is from Epidemic Sound.

The views and opinions expressed by external podcast speakers and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Robin Hood or its personnel, nor does Robin Hood advocate or endorse any individuals or entities featured on the episodes.

TRANSCRIPT

This transcript was prepared by a transcription service. This version may not be in its final form and may be updated.

Kevin Thompson: From Robin Hood—New York City’s largest poverty-fighting philanthropy—I’m Kevin Thompson. Welcome to “This Robin Hood Moment.”

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Kevin Thompson: When you’re living paycheck to paycheck, every dollar matters. And in New York City, where rents are among the highest in the country, housing isn’t just another line item. It’s the decision that determines all others. We call this the “cost of choice”—the impossible tradeoffs people face when their income can’t cover all the basics. Do you pay the rent or buy groceries, cover your kids childcare or their asthma medication?

Earlier this summer, Robin Hood’s Poverty Tracker Spotlight on Housing revealed something staggering:Housing assistance programs like Section 8, the NYCHA Public Housing, and local initiatives like City FHEPS are keeping as many as 150,000 New Yorkers out of poverty. Housing subsidies aren’t just policy tools, they’re lifelines. And vouchers work; they help lower income New Yorkers stay in their homes and create one of the few proven pathways out of homelessness into long term, stable housing.

But the scale of the challenge is overwhelming. Nearly 2 million New Yorkers are rent burdened, spending more than 30% of their income just to keep a roof over their heads. For those in poverty, that number jumps to 72%, and the waiting list for housing assistance—over 285,000 families long. And more than 91,000 people, including 32,000 children, sleep in city shelters each night.

And yet, looming cuts could push 50,000 more New Yorkers below the poverty line. What kind of city are we building if no one can afford to stay here? That’s not just a policy concern. That’s a question about the very soul and future of New York City.

At Robin Hood, we’ve responded by increasing our grantmaking investments in housing by 130% over the previous year, funding everything from eviction prevention to AI supported housing navigation and the creation of new affordable homes, while also fighting for bold policy reforms at every level of government. And that’s why we are excited today to be joined by Commissioner Molly Park of the New York City Department of Social Services—the agency overseeing both the Human Resources Administration and the Department of Homeless Services.

She’ll help us unpack what’s at stake, how the city is responding, and what it will take to ensure housing remains within reach for every New Yorker. But before we dive in, if you have questions, feedback or any ideas for future episodes, email us at info at robinhood.org. And don’t forget to subscribe to “This Robin Hood Moment” so you’ll never miss a conversation.

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Kevin Thompson: You know, Crystal, one of the things I keep thinking about when we talk about housing is how it’s not just about paying the rent. It’s about all these trade offs that come with it.

Crystal Cooper: Right? We’ve been using this “cost of choice” framework at Robin Hood to talk about exactly that. What are the choices you don’t get to make when the rent eats up most of your income?

Kevin Thompson: Exactly. If you’re spending 50, 60, or even 70% of your paycheck on housing, suddenly everything else— groceries, childcare, transportation, health care—that all becomes a calculation. You can’t win.

Crystal Cooper: And those choices aren’t just stressful, they’re exhausting. It’s like living in a constant state of triage, asking yourself, what do I go without this week?

Kevin Thompson: And even when there are programs that can help, actually accessing them can feel like navigating an obstacle course. Forms. Appointments. Eligibility requirements that can change without notice.

Crystal Cooper: Which is why I’m really looking forward to this conversation with Commissioner Molly Park. She’s working to make that whole process more navigable for New Yorkers, streamlining services, connecting people with resources faster, and making sure that help doesn’t get lost in the bureaucracy. And that’s where we’ll start today: How New York City can cut through the red tape and give people back the one thing they’re losing most—choice.

Kevin Thompson: Commissioner Park, thank you for joining us! Welcome!

Molly Park: Thanks so much for having me.

Crystal Cooper: You oversee the Department of Social Services which covers both the Human Resources Administration and the Department of Homeless Services. This places you at the center of how New Yorkers connect with housing support and other critical services. Commissioner, tell us what your department is mandated to do, and how DSS fits into the safety net ecosystem here in New York City.

Molly Park: So the Department of Social Services is the largest municipal social service agency in the country. We serve about 3 million New Yorkers a year. On the Human Resources Administration side, HRA, we are the benefits administration agency for the city. So that includes benefits like SNAP assistance, what was formerly known as food stamps, cash assistance. We manage, a share of the Medicaid for the state of New York. Rental assistance—you already alluded to that. That that is a very big piece of our work right now. We do workforce development programing, civil legal assistance, and a slew of other programs that, you know, we could be here all day if I listed them all out.

And then on the Department of Homeless Services side, we are the primary sheltering agency for the city. So New York City, unlike, just about any other jurisdiction in the country, is a right to shelter city. We have a very, very robust, emergency shelter system that is managed by the Department of of Homeless Services. DHS also does street outreach, engaging with those individuals who are living on the streets and on the subways.

Kevin Thompson: Commissioner, give us a sense of how big, the homeless challenge is in New York City. How many people are homeless here?

Molly Park: So on any given night, there are between 85 and 86,000 people in the Department of Homeless Services shelters. That’s a number that’s up quite substantially, from the last few years, driven very much by the, influx of asylum seekers into New York City. There have been close to 250,000 asylum seekers who’ve passed through city systems over the last since, beginning about April of 2022.

What that number doesn’t include—I think it’s important to reflect on what it doesn’t include—is about 6,300 asylum seekers who are in the in a non DHS system. It doesn’t include the, domestic violence shelters. It doesn’t include the, runaway and homeless youth. So there are a number of people who are literally homeless and, working with city systems that aren’t in that 85, 86,000.

But even more significantly, it doesn’t include those who are doubled up or severely rent burdened. At any given time, there are about 25,000, school-age children in the Department of Homeless Services system. So, you know, there’s, those aren’t entirely apples to oranges numbers, anyways, it’s point-in-time versus system. But bottom line is the number of, children who are literally in the shelter system is a relatively small share of those who, with other definitions of homelessness, or certainly housing and stability, would be considered to be experiencing homelessness. Also doesn’t include the the more than 50% of renter households who are rent burdened.

Kevin Thompson: Wow. So just a huge number. I mean, 146,000 kids alone. What what sort of burden does that place on all New Yorkers? How does that impact the city? And and what is DSS really doing to reduce the homeless population?

Molly Park: So with with respect to burden on the city as a whole, I mean, I think it is very easy to tie that to dollars and cents, right? The Department of Homeless Services, and I don’t mean the entire DSS, but specifically the DHS budget at this point is close to $4 billion. But so the the cost of providing services to people experiencing homelessness, which is the those who are literally in shelter, not that entire 146,000 number, but is it’s very steep and that is that is a trade off that the city is making. Right? Those are resources that aren’t going elsewhere.

But I think it has it has larger implications that relate to the, the people that we serve themselves. One of the, strongest predictors of who will become, under the shelter system is adult is whether or not you experienced homelessness as a child. Right. This is a perpetuating cycle.

And, and that places a burden on, on the city because people aren’t able to rise to their, their full potential, and to become the New Yorkers that everybody would, would like them to be. With respect to prevention, preventing homelessness is, is very, very difficult, because the overwhelming majority of people who are doubled up or severely rent burdened are never going to enter shelter.

So if we’re trying to think about how we actually say our goal is to have that 85,000 people be a lower number which—let me say, it is absolutely my goal to have that, that 85,000 people, be a lower number—it’s challenging to design policies. You either need to be upstream, in which case you’re, you’re casting quite a wide net and spending a lot of money, right, to reach people who wouldn’t have and entered the shelter system.

That doesn’t mean that they aren’t facing real housing instability, but they wouldn’t have entered the shelter system. Or you need to be very targeted at the front door. And so we’re trying to approach that essentially in from both angles. You know, I think it is it is not there’s no single silver bullet, but we are we’re looking at a lot of different ways that we can do that.

Crystal Cooper: Commissioner, from your perspective, what does housing stability truly mean for a New Yorker who is living at the edge of poverty, who is maybe doubled up, who has maybe not entered the shelter system yet, but how can they achieve true stability in an environment where vacancy rates are well below 1%, where market rental rates are among the highest in the nation, and where New Yorkers in poverty are spending 72% of their income on rent alone.

Molly Park: So, I mean, with respect to what does it mean, I think it means a family and individual is not primarily focused that they’re not going to have a place to live, right? And that gives them the opportunity to think about education or their job or their child’s education, or all of the above. I think very importantly, it empowers residents to hold landlords accountable, right? If you were paying 50, 60, 70% of your income in rent, and you know that your ability to move is essentially negligible, right? You don’t feel empowered to call your landlord when there’s a repair issue, right? You feel like you have to take what what is there. So I think that is an important part of housing stability.

And it it allows you to put roots down in a community. There is so much in our resource allocation and this way that we as a society and frankly, as a country deliver services that is place-based, right? Where your child goes to school depends on where you live, your connection, your ability to move on to the next job depends on the the transportation that is available to you. So being able to, say, this is a community that I am connecting to, that I am committed to, that where I don’t need to worry that I’m going to be out in in a week or a month or a year. And you can engage with that place is really important.

Respect to the solution: there is no one solution, right? It’s something that we’re going to need a lot of different, tools and programs to, to work on. So at the Department of Social Services, we really have a three-prong toolbox that’s focused on housing stability. And I use that phrase very deliberately, as opposed to homelessness prevention, because many of the people who, who will engage with these services weren’t going to enter the shelter system, but housing stability in and of itself is the source of, of trauma and expense and challenge. So, housing stability is a goal in and of itself is important.

We have our home base offices—we have 26 offices around the city, operated by not for profit organizations where people can walk in, get assistance with, access to benefits, career supports, range of other services, rental assistance for those who are eligible.

We operate a groundbreaking right to counsel program so that low income households who are who are in housing court can have access to an attorney. And then we pay for hundreds of millions of dollars worth of what we colloquially call “one shot deals,” which is emergency rental assistance for those who have found themselves in arrears. So that’s an important, part of the work that we do.

But I also think it’s really important to think not just about the housing side of the equation, but also people’s income. You know, we the affordable housing sector, and I certainly count myself in there, have a tendency to focus entirely on the housing part of of the housing affordability. But it’s also about how much you have to spend. And so, you know, one of the things that we’re really doing is investing in our workforce development programs, trying to connect people to good paying jobs, to career path jobs, so that this isn’t always a struggle.

Kevin Thompson: I want to pick back up on that in just a second. But before we do, you know, as the commissioner because you’ve got I had a job and there’s a lot balance and you have this all of the above strategy that you’re pursuing, in a really tight environment, you know, where there’s almost no vacancy, you know, like, so where do you place people?

How do you approach that every day? You know, as a commissioner, you know, when you walk into your office in the morning, you I mean, you know, that this is New York City. There’s not a lot of options to to send people yet, you have, you know, 85, 86,000 people in the shelter system, another group of people that are dealing with housing instability, as you’ve outlined, and you have all these programs that you’re trying to help folks. But at the end of the day, you know, it’s about getting a roof over someone’s head.

Molly Park: You know, housing is what gets me out of bed in the morning. I grew up in the affordable housing world and walking into DSS, you know, I certainly I was aware of the rental assistance program, but really, I think most people don’t appreciate the extent to which DSS really is a housing agency. This has grown quite substantially over the last couple of years since I’ve been commissioner, but we, the City FHEPS program, which is the city funded rental assistance voucher program, currently serves about 58,000 households. That makes us the largest rental subsidy assistance program in the country other than NYCHA Section 8 program. So every other Section 8 program in the country is smaller than we are. And that doesn’t include there’s another 20,000 or so households that are receiving rental assistance, for us through our, programs for people with HIV and AIDS

And then another 10,000 or so of assorted other rental assistance subsidies. So we are, you know, there are, you know, easily close to 90,000 households that are that are dependent on DSS for their rental assistance. And it has been really important that we are very good at that work.

The vacancy rate is absolutely a challenge, right? In New York City overall, it’s 1.4% and it’s lower than not for those that are, for apartments that are, have lower rents. But we’ve been able to significantly increase City FHEPS utilization year over year. The, the, City Fiscal Year 25 that just ended, we were up, 17% relative to City Fiscal Year 24, which was that, up to 42% over City Fiscal Year 23.

So we’re really focused on this. And it has been, I think, a very nitty gritty effort that involves people all over the agency focused on solving very unsexy administrative problems, right? You know, one of the things that I heard over and over again when I first came in was, you know, we have a process that we call clearance where we look at, you know, does the unit have violations?

And as the person who says they own the building, do they actually own the building, those kinds of things and it was very manual. And the number of people who told me that the clearance was the thing that was making them crazy was, was really surprising. So we automated it, right? So instead of having to look up, you know, Department of Buildings violations on the Department of Buildings website and HPD violations on the HPD website…

Crystal Cooper: So arduous.

Molly Park: Right, you could we could actually pull that. And it’s now taking, you know, a day instead of a week and like, really trying to sort of step by step, change the process. One of the things, something that we rolled out just this month, that sounds utterly straightforward, but, you know, given the regulatory environment that we live in, was really hard, for people who are on cash assistance, right?

So we are administering their cash assistance, and we have data from them on what their income is. We’re going to use that income for their rental assistance instead of making them give new income data. Again, sounds very basic, but there was, you know, months and months worth of legal and process work that went into getting there.

But that’s going to really, it’s going to make the process easier for people and it’s going to make it go faster. And it is these, you know, many incremental steps, you know, as I say, none of which are going to get a press release, but together they get to a place where we’re looking at multiple years worth of double digit increases and and lease up.

Crystal Cooper: Commissioner, if you don’t mind it, it sounds to me like what you’re saying is that for many of these applicants and New Yorkers who are facing housing challenges, that time is a resource. Time is also a resource for them. And it brings me back to the central theme that this series explores, which is the “cost of choice” and how poverty strips away the ability to make fundamental life decisions from people experiencing it. What choices, just, you know, kind of on a different path, what choices disappear for a family when housing costs swallow most of their income, and also when they have to spend then their time, that other resource just to navigate the system?

Molly Park: I think that breaks down into two categories: first of all, housing choice disappears. That that seems very, very obvious, but but it does…

Crystal Cooper: Say more!

Molly Park: If you were severely rent burdened, you are essentially taking what you can get for housing, right? And most of us make trade-offs when it comes to where we live. I, you know, live an hour from my job, but I, you know, have a little bit more space in the apartment than I would if I lived closer or somebody’s going to pick a, you know, four story walk up and, you know, location that they love, right? Those kinds of choices are inherent in living in a big city. But if you are paying 60% of your income, you don’t you don’t get to make that—it is made for you. And given the number of services and that are connected to location in New York, but frankly, across the country, right?

Your kids school is dictated by where you live. The transportation that you have access to determines what job you can take. The physical environment that you are in can determine your health outcomes. The fact that you that somebody doesn’t have a choice on where they are going to live really has ripple effects that affect so much else of, of their lives.

And then there is the other side of the the equation of what’s left. Well, after you’ve paid 50, 60, 70% of your income and rent, and how do you choose between all of the other expenses? That absolutely applies to necessities, right? You know, you hear everyday stories about people making choices between food and health care, child care.

But also there’s a very gray area, I think, between what is a necessity and what is a luxury. You know, if you’re taking your child to a museum or signing them up for an after school class, is that a luxury or is that a necessity, right? It’s many people are able to do those things and take them for granted. And that that in turn creates, mobility and opportunity for, for kids. A low income household doesn’t have that choice.

Kevin Thompson: You know, I’m not a native New Yorker, and I frequently talk to people in other parts of the country, you know, when when we talk about New York City and, and I think most people think about, you know, New York being a really expensive place. But this concept of choice sort of like, well, you know, everyone has a choice of where they live and you contend with with what comes with that when you choose to live in New York City.

And personally, it kind of rubs me the wrong way because we don’t always get to choose where we end up or or what have you. Secondly, New York is not a monolith. It’s, you know, we weren’t it’s one thing to talk about Manhattan and maybe, you know, Midtown or something like that in that sort of price. But this is, a reality in the outer boroughs as well. Is that correct? And what are you seeing in the outer boroughs?

Molly Park: There is, there’s housing stability, instability, high rent burdens in every single community across the city. One of the things that we’ve been focused on at the Department of Homeless Services is that actually making sure that we have shelters in every community across the city, because there are people in the shelter system from every single community across, across the city, including the highest income communities, low-income communities and everything in between.

So, you know, I think something that’s really important that that listeners should remember is that everybody is interacting with somebody who’s severely rent burdened, right? Whether it is somebody who you are close with or whether it is the person who is pouring your coffee on a day-to-day basis, or the security guard in your office. Everybody is interacting with people who are severely rent burdened. And if we don’t have that, if we got to a place where we were a city of only wealthy people, we would not be able to function.

Crystal Cooper: I’m glad you took us there, because I’m curious, you know, in your time as Commissioner or just in the housing world, if you can share an example, if one comes to mind of a time when keeping someone in their home was about more than just paying the rent and that voucher, that Section 8 program, but maybe some of these, ancillary supports?

Molly Park: The path to housing stability is broader than just, rental assistance or how much your housing costs, right? Because at the end of the day, what matters is how what are the resources that a given household has and what are the, costs that they need to cover? Housing is a piece of that right. But so is food. So is health care, so is transportation, you know?

One of the things that I’m very worried about at the moment is that as, the requirements of the Reconciliation Act roll into place, which are going to have some major impacts on SNAP funding, that we are going to see an increase in housing instability, and, and potentially shelter entrance, not because of something that is housing specific, but because we are taking money out of people’s budgets.

Kevin Thompson: Yeah, let’s just, talk about that a little bit because I as I understand it, there, there going to be an additional 50,000 New Yorkers who could fall into poverty. Just looking at the cuts on the housing assistance programs alone. How’s that, going to impact the city as a whole, and the work that your department is doing? It’s going to create, obviously, new demands for you.

Molly Park: Yeah, so let me start with a maybe a slight bit of good news, right?

Kevin Thompson: Sure!

Molly Park: Which is, the president’s skinny budget had proposed very, very dramatic cuts to Section 8ight and public housing that would have had, dramatic and, and probably very near term impacts on the number of people who are stably housed. Neither the House or the Senate has included those in their THUD Appropriation bills.

So, it’s absolutely something that we need to keep an eye on that we need to keep monitoring. And those but those appropriation bills are not yet law. So, you know, I’m not not breathing easy yet, but, at the moment, there are reasons to feel positive about the specific housing spending.

Kevin Thompson: And we should note that, that those are still under debate.

Molly Park: Yeah. Yeah. Yes to my… neither of those bills is has has been signed into law yet. But I think what we are looking more broadly, right, we’re seeing very significant cuts to SNAP and very significant cuts to Medicaid, two programs that low income households rely on very heavily. And, and food and medical care, you can only trade those off so much, right. Those are, those are expenses that you need to spend. So, I think it’s going to have a very immediate impact on, on demand for emergency services and, and social supports in the city, which is going to put a strain on the agency, a strain on our not-for-profit partners, a strain on the city’s budget.

But the other piece of it is, it’s also going to put a strain on the city’s economy, right? This is a USDA number: every dollar of SNAP generates $1.54 worth of economic activity, right, because nobody is saving their SNAP benefits. As soon as they get SNAP benefits, people go and they spend them. They spend them in their local community. So when benefits are reduced, spending is reduced, that’s going to hurt the local grocery stores. It’s going to hurt the food supply industry. So there we’re going to see a ripple impact on this for quite some time.

Crystal Cooper: Final question for you, which is two part, for New Yorkers who aren’t in poverty, what do you wish they understood about the role that housing plays in economic mobility? And lastly, what gives you hope for New York City in addressing these issues, both in the near term and in the future?

Molly Park: My answer on the first one about what I wish people knew was going to go very nerdy, but…

Kevin Thompson: Go for it!

Molly Park: …that is that is who I am. I mean, I think, a few years ago I had the opportunity to see the redesign of the Red Line exhibit that had that was circulating and the, you know, this was something that I knew intellectually but didn’t appreciate the extent to which, the implementation of the GI Bill after World War two and then very deliberate, both government and private financial partner, financial sector decisions around redlining have enormously shaped the landscape today, right?

White communities were able to invest in housing and create generational wealth and that there were certain neighborhoods that were able to flourish and thrive and be healthy places to live with good schools and that and then other communities very, very deliberately, and these communities that, were largely, you know, Black and Brown communities, were were denied that same opportunity, right?

People couldn’t get loans that resulted in disinvestment. And you had the ripple effects of disinvestment in schools and in public infrastructure and everything else. And that that those policies and decisions that were made, you know, 80 years ago are still absolutely driving the housing landscape and, frankly, the economic landscape that we live in today.

And then the other piece of it, I think, is I mentioned this earlier, is this concept that everybody knows somebody who is struggling, right? And whether it is somebody you actually have a personal relationship with or it is the people who clean your office or pour your coffee or, you know, walk the dog, right? Somebody in your life is struggling with rent burden and housing instability.

And any one of those people could need the supports of DHS, DSS at a moment’s notice and that, really would, you know, wish there was a little bit more empathy and understanding for that, writ large.

With respect to hope, I mean, I do think we are in a different place in New York City than just about any place else in the country. That doesn’t mean that things aren’t going to be challenging going forward, but, we have more investment from the City and from the State. We have an incredibly robust, you know, human capital sector, not-for-profits and for-profit developers. And all of that is going to the creativity and the resources that are available are going to make us less bad off than other parts of the country.

I’d also say in this, we are in a place where, where there is beginning to be national recognition of a housing emergency. And I think, you know, that it is both at local and federal levels, a regular part of election conversations. And I think we’re going to start to see that gain more and more traction going forward.

Kevin Thompson: Well, Commissioner, I really appreciate your time. It was such a pleasure to have you here. I’m so inspired by the creativity and the innovation that your office is engaged in because you really are looking at this from a, you know, all of the above strategies. So you’re really thinking very broadly about this. And I think that serves all New Yorkers really well. So thank you for your service to begin with and thank you for being here.

And to our listeners, thank you for joining us on “This Robin Hood Moment.” If you’re inspired to get involved, visit us at robinood.org to learn how you can invest in Robin Hood’s so all New Yorkers can live choice-filled lives. Until next time.

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Kevin Thompson: This episode of “This Robin Hood Moment” was produced and edited by Cory Winter. Graphics by Mary Power. Our theme music is from Epidemic Sound. I’m Kevin Thompson—joined by the ever-insightful Crystal Cooper—for Robin Hood: New York City’s largest local poverty-fighting philanthropy. Thanks for listening.

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Crystal Cooper: In New York City, too many families face an impossible choice—pay the rent, or pay for everything else.

At Robin Hood, we fight poverty by partnering with organizations like Anthos|Home, helping New Yorkers turn housing vouchers into four walls and a roof, because stability is a basic need.

To hear what that fight looks like up close, listen to the companion episode, “Michelle’s Choice: A Key to Stability.” It’s the story of one New Yorker who refused to give up on finding a place to call home.

Because behind every policy, there’s a person. And behind every person, there’s the fight for a fairer New York.

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